Higher Education Research: The Innovation Game (featuring Aeron Zentner)

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:12.800 Welcome to the higher edge, a podcast for the brightest minds and higher education, 2 00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:17.399 to hear from the change makers and rule breakers that are driving meaningful, 3 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:24.280 impactful change for colleges and universities across the country, from improving operations to supporting 4 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:30.280 student success. These are the stories that give you the higher edge. And 5 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:35.880 now your host, Brendan Albitch. Hey, everybody, welcome to the higher 6 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:40.039 edge. I'm Brendan Aldrich and I'm here today with Aaron Zentner, who is 7 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:45.000 the dean of institutional effectiveness, research, analytics, accessibility, accreditation, planning 8 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:50.079 and grant development for the coastline community college, a multi campus district that's in 9 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:54.399 the heart of Orange County California and fast. fact, coastline has been a 10 00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:00.039 leader and online education for over forty six years, having first been founded in 11 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:03.040 and the six as the distance learning college for the Coast Community College district. 12 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.760 Aaron, welcome and thank you so much for joining us here on the higher 13 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:10.799 edge. Thank you so much for having me today. You know Aaron now. 14 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:12.200 You and I've known each other for some time and I often think of 15 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:18.879 you as sort of an activist researcher within the California Community Colleges, because you 16 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:23.840 are constantly working across your campus and the system to promote not just data but 17 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:29.799 the integration and the use of data to create new opportunities. How do you 18 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:34.519 feel about traditional research versus, I don't know, maybe we call it activated 19 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:40.400 research. So I think traditional research and methods and ways we apply things really 20 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:46.959 comes through as the hallmarks of really trying to build out new methods and approaches 21 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:52.000 to engaging our stakeholders, community, students and the like. Now, traditional 22 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.000 research, and I do a lot of publications myself and author of a ton 23 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.079 of books, is really a great way to start. It helps you almost, 24 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:02.480 like I said, build that foundation and really understand the concepts of validity 25 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:07.640 and the like. But also, when you want to make change, you've 26 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:12.039 got to remember you can't do everything that everyone else is doing. You know, 27 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:15.599 no one ever made a difference by being like everyone else. Taking that 28 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:22.680 kind of mindset and approach to really sharing information and really building out data and 29 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:27.960 the utilization of that has been the crux of the work that I've been doing 30 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:30.960 over my career and and it's kind of coming from, you know, not 31 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:36.240 having a traditional background, you know, not being a first generation college student, 32 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:40.319 not being surrounded by college or the terminology or the backgrounds of that and 33 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:45.199 really opening my eyes to a brand new world when I came into higher education, 34 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:46.479 just as a student, student, worker, all the way through where 35 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:50.439 I'm at today and trying to say, you know, how do we be 36 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:54.360 inclusive of others here, their diverse perspectives and share that information that can really 37 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:58.400 engage. So a lot of the times we think, you know, when 38 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:00.759 we talk about data, you have to that in your title. But what 39 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:07.360 we found is that data belongs to everyone and we create data, we curate 40 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:10.479 it, we look at it directly indirectly, and how do we leverage that? 41 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:15.479 And I just think of looking as just a component of research, where 42 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.599 research is very important to help move and grow the pool of knowledge. I 43 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:25.639 feel that activating research and having more active analytics and looking things very consistently helps 44 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:29.439 us make better decisions and I think, like I said, it doesn't just 45 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:31.599 belong to the decision makers, it belongs to all of us. I think 46 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:35.560 about this morning. How many times could I press the snooze button before I 47 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:38.560 had to wake up for this interview? And so and those are the type 48 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.319 of things that that those are analytics that we do personally on a day to 49 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:45.879 day basis. So that's kind of the approaches I've used in my career. 50 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:49.759 You know, when you mentioned research in itself, you know there's so many 51 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:53.159 variations these days on the research role in higher education. We've got the traditional 52 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:57.879 institutional research, but that can extend into a lot of other areas, right. 53 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:01.639 So we got like institutional effect and analysis, planning and more. I 54 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:05.479 mean, when you look at the evolving role of research within an institution, 55 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:10.439 what do you think about where we are and where we're going? I used 56 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:16.199 to see research very segmented into specific areas, faculty research, Academic Research, 57 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:20.480 public research, and then it moved into more operational research, which was more 58 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:26.319 institutional reporting, and as you watch the evolution of that coming over time to 59 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:31.079 say how do you utilize now reporting metrics into operational effectiveness metrics to to look 60 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.120 at trends over time with planning and Decision Making, and now taking that a 61 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:40.879 step further to say well, what are the analytics of behaviors, of characteristics, 62 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:44.519 not just internally to our organizations but externally, and the factors, the 63 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:50.480 quantitative, qualitative, objective subjective factors that can influence the totality of the total 64 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:55.560 experience for our students, our employees in our community and really taking that and 65 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.439 looking that evolution going forward to say, you know, it's time to kind 66 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.279 of to separate or break down the walls or barriers or silos between us and 67 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:06.959 say how do we really integrate this together? And, like you said in 68 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:11.480 the in the kind of the previous question, you don't have to have the 69 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:15.079 term data in your title in order to engage with it, to activate it, 70 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.519 to utilize it. And I think one of the things that really stood 71 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:24.439 out to me is it's an emerging trend, and maybe not just in California 72 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:30.000 but in other schools, that marrying data doesn't just come from a reporting office. 73 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.920 It's now a part of the conversation at every table. And how do 74 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.160 we continue to facilitate that? That makes sense, you know, when you 75 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:40.519 think about you know, you talk about activating data and I know we've had 76 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:45.240 this conversation before about this idea of data driven. You know, we hear 77 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:47.879 people talk about you know, I'm data driven or and a lot of people 78 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.560 refer data informed be you know, for different reasons. What do you see 79 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.759 as the difference between these when you take a look at data driven versus data 80 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.240 informed. What do you see as the difference between those two for most people? 81 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.560 So I really think about it through the Lens of application, you know, 82 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:09.040 and when I remember, here's a story that I had, I was 83 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:15.839 sitting in a room with faculty and managers and classified professionals and I remember talking 84 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.240 as one of the guests as to help lead their planning session, and I 85 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:24.759 use that phrase data driven and and this was a little bit earlier in my 86 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:30.000 career, and someone's like data doesn't drive anything, it informs and that and 87 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:32.600 that whole concept just just hit me like a ton of bricks and I was 88 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:38.120 like you're right, you are correct. And once again, no one from 89 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.959 data. Someone from a completely different background. I think it was even like 90 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.560 a humanity's background that pointed that out. And I sat there and I started 91 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:46.639 thinking about that. I said, you know what, if we looked at 92 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.240 when we're trying to go somewhere, the reality is is data is not behind 93 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:57.519 the wheel. You know, data is typically the fuel that fuels our ideas, 94 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:00.720 helps us understand it could be the navigation points that may point us in 95 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:03.920 certain direction and let us know, like Hey, a gas station is coming 96 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:08.160 up, a charging stations coming up, or here's a Wendy's to go get 97 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:11.360 a frosty, if that's what you want, you know, and to look 98 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:15.079 at those types of things to say, okay, data is an informant, 99 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.240 not a driver, where the drivers of the decisions. We're the ones making 100 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.800 decisions and deal with the consequences, not either end the data doesn't. But 101 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:27.319 then thinking about that a bit further, as we start saying, you know, 102 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.800 we want to build literacy, we want to build culture, really thinking 103 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.439 about what does that mean? And I have a good friend who was talking 104 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:38.199 that. I was talking to you the other day, who mentioned this to 105 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.279 me and I'm not going to tell you his name, Brendan, but when 106 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:46.959 I was talking to him he brought a concept to me called data empowered, 107 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:51.639 and I took a day to think about that. It's really that's where we're 108 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:57.800 headed in from data driven that data drives every decision we do now with prescriptive 109 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:01.160 analytics, it could or if if you're in the Netflix saying like Hey, 110 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:03.279 I'm gonna do this next, yes, that that could be a very good 111 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:09.879 prescription for you or recommendation to data informed, to say x, Y and 112 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.959 Z s around what do you want to do to now data empowered to as 113 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:18.160 we we circle back to the cool concept of data is for everyone. That 114 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:22.600 how do we move that concept forward? You empower people, you inform them 115 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.800 to build knowledge. Knowledge builds action, action builds change, and so that's 116 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.079 where data can then be leveraged in that way. Data driven never really hit 117 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.559 right. Data informed, I was always a big fan of, but I 118 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.360 agree with you when you start hearing about, you know, data informed does 119 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.440 feel a little passive. It's like, well, your data informed, but 120 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:43.799 is that really helping you get anywhere? And I love what you're talking about 121 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.919 data empowered as as really that more active format. I'm taking that data, 122 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.639 I'm hearing it, I'm learning it and I'm acting on it. Speaking of 123 00:08:52.919 --> 00:09:00.159 doing things to help really empower people with data in you were the recipient of 124 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:05.840 RP group's institutional effectiveness project of the Year award specifically for your leadership and guidance 125 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.879 and the creation of an instructor led data coach online training course. That was 126 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.679 called Data Training and coaching for higher education professionals, and tell us a little 127 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:18.320 bit more about that. So, over the years we had been developing out 128 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:24.879 a series of trainings of face to face trainings, online, live trainings, 129 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:30.799 just collaborative spaces, primarily hands on, really following a traditional Taina coaching experience 130 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:33.799 where you fill out some worksheets, you go to some dashboards, you try 131 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:39.320 to look and explain data or you draw our office survey and while we felt 132 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:43.399 that made some impact, noticing how the organization coastline is set up. We 133 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:48.200 have four campuses spread through Orange County. Were very non traditional college, as 134 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:52.759 you mentioned earlier. We started in nineteen six and we started as a college 135 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.519 that was required to be different. We had a TV station at our district 136 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.679 and we said, how are we going to utilize this to escapability? So 137 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:05.360 in seventy six they decided let's create a distance learning college. And for a 138 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.720 little bit of history, is our president at the time when they started coastline 139 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:13.000 college and our chancellor had to go up and modify title five language to allow 140 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:22.159 distance learning to occur. So nine we started having education put on television, 141 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:28.799 the original distance learning, original distance learning for for public institutions, and so 142 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:33.200 taking that concept and watching it evolve over time to say, you know, 143 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.759 in the early two thousand's, being one of the first pioneers of online education 144 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.639 and as we roll out with our new competency based education, what does that 145 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.759 look like? More of an on demand education experience and really, like I 146 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.720 said, being a hopefully what we would call like a trailblazer in education, 147 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.120 thinking about that in our training and our engagement and, as I mentioned earlier, 148 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.840 we have four campuses spread throughout Orange County and primarily what everything we do 149 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:01.000 pre pandemic was at a distance. So, understanding the environment that we're in, 150 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:05.879 it didn't make sense to have everybody traveled to multiple campuses. And what 151 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.919 we were thinking is, well, how can we reach the mass of our 152 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:16.480 employees now and give them the skills they need on their time and not try 153 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:20.039 to segment or try to fit like thirty or forty people on a on a 154 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:24.600 timeframe that no one can agree on. And so when we looked at that, 155 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.519 we wanted to really say, okay, what's the most impactful thing that 156 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:30.840 we can teach? You know, I'm not going to go in and teach 157 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.879 a statistics class. While everyone would love that, they probably weren't looking forward 158 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:39.000 to something like that because I I feel for some reason analytics, while we 159 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.320 have tons and tons of math across that and data science. I think that 160 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:46.080 just gets coupled into that and we get the fear of I don't like maths, 161 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.080 so I don't like data analytics, or I don't like research, I 162 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:54.360 don't like this. And the reality is it's a field of creativity, of 163 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:58.759 critical thinking and synthesis and really starting with that, you know, putting to 164 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:03.360 other and inviting anyone who would like to participate to come through this program in 165 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:09.000 a cross functional manner, to interact and engage in the first explaining about, 166 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.399 you know, what is inquiry, what are the questions you're trying to answer? 167 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.039 Almost how do you define the right question? How do you know, 168 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:22.879 almost create a hypothesis without being so technical about that and giving everybody the longitude 169 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:28.000 and latitude to really be creative and say, well, what are you interested 170 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.720 in? Starting at that point and then introducing, you know, a few 171 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:37.960 traditional research approaches, but really putting in an applicable manner that says, hows 172 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:41.639 this affect your job and how can you utilize data to make change? And 173 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:43.879 so that was really the core of that, which then got into what various 174 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:48.240 techniques are there, what various data are there, what do you have access 175 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.960 to? And then taking individuals through different steps on how to get information and 176 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.360 a whole time across this three or four week course, building upon this project 177 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.559 and idea that they're putting through the discussion boards and collaboration with peers, to 178 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:07.759 continue to refine it by the week four, creating a framework to say I 179 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:09.840 would like to conduct the study, I would like to look at this analytics, 180 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.759 I'd like to create this, and then have them give that presentation to 181 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:18.919 the Executive Board, to my department and to it through different ways, through 182 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:24.159 video, through a report, through a memo, through a power point and 183 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:26.120 teaching them. Hey, when you get to this point of not just conducting 184 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:31.399 research as it's a coaching how do you facilitate that conversation with others? Because 185 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.960 I think it's the hardest point that I've seen is once you have some really 186 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:39.600 cool information, sometimes someone doesn't want to read a four hundred page fact book. 187 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.639 They want a one page infographic on fast facts. For me, getting 188 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.240 back to the core of the class, was how do we make a fun 189 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:52.080 and engaging experience that can include everyone? And what I've noticed is we've had 190 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.679 almost a hundred people go through this and it's from all walks of the institution 191 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:00.799 for vice presidents to a lot of part time faculty and the great thing about 192 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:05.480 coastline is we have a variety of expertise in our part time faculty over our 193 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.480 faculty at part time because we've belonged to a Multi College district and you can 194 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.399 do that. And so giving those individuals the opportunity, where they may be 195 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:16.879 not having an office to go to or not being on campus, it's really 196 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.120 really thought outside the box and then empowering others to say how can you make 197 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.480 change? And that's really the focus of that and so seeing that going through 198 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:31.360 working with the State Chancellor's office, we made a self paced program of this 199 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.679 so if you don't have an instructor to lead it, and that's completely free 200 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.480 from the Vision Resource Center from the State Chancellor's office. And then I just 201 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.679 made the newest generation that's on campus Commons. I think we have a hundred 202 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.000 and sixty six downloads on it already and it's now going to be more of 203 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:52.240 a shorter approach, but that's instructor lead, because I think having that time 204 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:56.840 where you can either record or have engagement and then share those different mediums can 205 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:00.919 really engage the different learning styles of what people have, and I think that's 206 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.399 really the focus. Is What's the ending, what we're trying to achieve and 207 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:11.000 really drawing out that ideal state. All colleges and universities face challenges in advancing 208 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:16.039 the mission of higher education. Some problems impeding your progress are known, but 209 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:24.240 others are invisible, hidden, impossible to address. 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Staying just on that 218 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.519 topic of innovation for a second, you know these days it's like everyone wants 219 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:23.159 to talk about that they're innovative. You know, I'm innovative, you're innovative, 220 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.600 we're an innovative company. But then the question really comes down to are 221 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:32.840 they really innovative or is this just a label they put out because it's what 222 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.559 people want to hear? Right? So, in fact, you took this 223 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:41.879 question and then created an awesome game called cards against innovation. How did that 224 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.000 come about? Everyone wants to do innovation. It's the coolest thing to do, 225 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.159 you know, it's exciting to do, to create new things. Everybody 226 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.960 believes every innovation must be a breakthrough innovation and as as we know, innovation 227 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:57.679 has a variety of steps, from fast second innovations to incremental innovations. There's 228 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:02.200 a variety of things that you can blue ocean strategy, red ocean strategy, 229 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.319 so many things. But when we think about innovation, the question that comes 230 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:10.799 up is for me, is are you ready? You know, everyone's like 231 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:12.079 yeah, let's go, and then when it comes to the work, like 232 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:15.480 Whoa, that's that's not our culture. We can't question the norm. What 233 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.599 do you mean? This is how we've traditionally done this, especially in higher 234 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:23.880 education, and so what my research team and I did, and we published 235 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:29.720 an article on this, was we looked at at literature over time and we 236 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:34.319 looked at what were the common themes that emerged throughout innovation models that would say 237 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:40.480 hey, what really like leads to innovation? So we got something like fourteen 238 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:45.119 hundred variables, something of that magnitude. We recategorized them and modeled it down 239 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.720 and whittled it down to four main areas. After the four four main areas, 240 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.559 we looked at the frequencies by where, Um, these different factors and 241 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.880 behaviors would occur. And so then, based on that, we created a 242 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:02.920 game called for higher education primary they called cards against innovation for high education professionals, 243 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.039 and in that game it's a game where you are given a set of 244 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.640 cards and situations. So, for example, a situation was let's do guided 245 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:17.680 pathways, or accreditation report is coming up and so and the cards that the 246 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:22.279 response that everyone gets to read is what is a typical response from your college, 247 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.400 like let's start a committee. Not My job, I have to talk 248 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:29.799 to the Union. Like I think those are the types of things that, 249 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.960 hey, just send an email to everyone and maybe someone will read it. 250 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.240 And I think those are the ideas and we we purposely made. There's, 251 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.559 I think, eight cards in the set of just funny responses. But we 252 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.799 went through and engaged like a bunch of colleagues to say what would be something 253 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.160 really silly that you here on a consistent basis. And so then, as 254 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:52.279 a step further, after producing this game in a pretty mask, like twenty 255 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:56.559 boards of it, we had a college wide event and during the event we 256 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.960 took the game out and we had everybody go through play different tables and how 257 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.880 to play it, and there was a lot of laughter. But at the 258 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:10.240 end we had a conversation to say this is really an awareness tool to say, 259 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.359 how are we behaving? Is this the common action? To say, 260 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.759 you know, are we structurally not there? Do we have not have leadership? 261 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:19.799 Do not have support? You know, do not have a mindset for 262 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:25.519 this. And it really helped for self reflection and we even had board members 263 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:27.440 play this and they had a blast and then we ended up taking it up 264 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.559 to a statewide conference in doing it there, and then I just did it 265 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:36.559 with a one of my doctoral classes and and they and they were just very 266 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.319 almost almost say they were impressed, but I think very self reflecting and like 267 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.319 wow, that tab is all the time at my institution and and that was 268 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.440 the purpose of that game, because the reality is you we could have sent 269 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.920 out that publication report like, Hey, you want to read this report with 270 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:55.279 all these tables and charts? Not Really. I think that's the thing of 271 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.359 how do we bring it to life and put it in their shoes? I'll 272 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.359 give you a short, a brief demo about how the game works. Now 273 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.319 we've got to play around of cards against innovation. Can We? Can we 274 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.920 do that? We can. I have it right here in front of me, 275 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:14.200 and so what we'll do is I just want to kind of explain how 276 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.640 it works. It's kind of like the cards against humanity, this game where 277 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:22.480 you're given a situation and in this case it's a situation related to higher education. 278 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.440 And so what happens is all the players are given a deck of a 279 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.440 stack of cards and they pick the most applicable, not applicable, or what 280 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:37.279 they find this hilarious response to the situation. Everybody puts their cards over and 281 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.759 then to put in their card, they get flipped over at once. We 282 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:45.839 all read them, we laugh and then the group votes to say which is 283 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:49.720 the most applicable or what do they find the most hilarious or the most obnoxious, 284 00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.279 and and whoever's card that is, they win that round. And so 285 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:56.759 a step further, as we then have, if we have time for conversation. 286 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.039 We talked about, well, what does this really affect? Is that 287 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.839 the mindset is its structure is at the leadership, and we talked about how 288 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:08.240 do you mitigate or change that? We're gonna go and pull up a situation. 289 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:12.319 So let's let's pull up what's what's the situation we're gonna get. So 290 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:17.160 the situation I have, and it's pretty applicable today. It says enrollment is 291 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:21.759 declined by ten. What can we do? And so we have eighty different 292 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.839 card options, but I just picked out a handful which I'll read. So 293 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:30.400 the first one is when I was in college and someone gives their ANTEC data 294 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:37.279 type of response and or someone says that won't work here. Or another one 295 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:45.839 is let's check with three committees what they think. Let's start a new committee 296 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:53.599 or print that document and said it on someone else's desk and then let's read 297 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:56.920 a book. And then the last one is said, I once heard a 298 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:02.039 students say, so I am those are just that is that is gonna be 299 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:07.720 my selection. I'M gonna go for you know, the anecdotal response. Yes, 300 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.119 the most, the most ANNEC data that we can get and, like 301 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:14.759 you said, they're just silly like that. And then there's other ones like 302 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:18.759 where's the data to support that? Take it to negotiations. That's not my 303 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:22.839 job. And those type of responses, which we hear all the time, 304 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:26.160 really helps us think. Well, is that a mindset thing? Is that 305 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:30.480 a structural thing? How can we get around that when we're trying to resolve 306 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:33.720 a problem or if there's an opportunity that exists? It's not always a problem 307 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:38.599 solved, but you know what opportunity exists that we can say that. But 308 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.480 how do we find in higher education that it gets stuck in some of the 309 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:48.319 what I call institutional swirl where we never get anything done? When we say, 310 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:49.519 Hey, we need to jump on this opportunity, like yeah, in 311 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.359 two years, when we get this done, like wait, oh, wait, 312 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.920 what a week? Let's go. I am I am. I'm seeing 313 00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:00.960 a future where cards against innovation is going to need to be played every leadership 314 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.160 retreat across the country. I think it would be. It's it's really fun 315 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.880 and, like I said, one day when we get to hang out again, 316 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.960 we'll we'll take over of our friends and have a great time with it. 317 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:15.160 It almost makes my next question feel silly with everything that's been going on 318 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.519 the creation of the the instructor let online course to help people better understand and 319 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:23.119 how to use data, and then the cards against innovation program that you've created. 320 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:26.680 My next question was actually, what are you doing to disrupt higher education? 321 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.079 Better question might be what aren't you doing yet to disrupt higher education? 322 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:36.079 Some of the things that we've looked at over time and just look at the 323 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:37.759 research. We'll talk about a data type of approach is, you know, 324 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.920 partnering with some of our friends and colleagues to say, what's that total student 325 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.039 experience? What is that data that we don't have? You know, being 326 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.200 able to leverage the capability of our friends and colleagues and also the public data 327 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:53.440 through a variety of entities and systems, can really look beyond just some characteristical 328 00:23:53.559 --> 00:24:00.480 data, but behavioral data of students in addition to environmental data around the students. 329 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.039 I think that's going to be a big turning point is really looking at 330 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:07.640 you know, there's big data and what I called Megadata, and how do 331 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:12.000 you get that megadata down to like those quick decisions and to really leveraging that? 332 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.200 I feel that as we start moving forward. That's some of the things 333 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:18.920 that we're going to be looking at and really building upon and and just once 334 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.400 again falling in the footsteps of some of our colleagues that are really advancing that 335 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.279 work at their institutions. For us and my local college, some of the 336 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.680 things that we're looking to do is over this last couple of weeks we've been 337 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:33.640 putting together. We belong to in consortia of nine schools. So we've got 338 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:38.039 a grant for one of the things that we did with that was to say 339 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:42.920 what is reimagining education and so we live in an on demand society. WHY 340 00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:48.400 CAN'T EDUCATION BE THAT WAY? We look at the for profit institutions that are 341 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:53.319 doing a service for students at a pretty high cost for that type of thing 342 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:59.480 where you can get education on demand. But why can't two year college is 343 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:03.319 Republican institutions be a fast second to that? While others have started that like 344 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:07.400 a disruption or almost a breakthrough type of innovation, how can we respond to 345 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.160 that in a manner through our public sector? So being a part of this 346 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.400 consoorceip of nine colleges, coastline has been the first college and I almost want 347 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:18.519 to say, the first college ever in this state of California of two year 348 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:26.160 public colleges to submit our accreditation application for substance change in order to offer competency 349 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:30.640 based education and really rethinking, like I said earlier, creating the on demand 350 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:36.839 educational experience for students. And we feel that we go back to our roots 351 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.799 in ninety six of you know, no one's ever done on education on TV. 352 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:44.279 No one's really not many people have done online. People don't agree with 353 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.720 that. A lot of people don't agree with the company's tvas thing. It's 354 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.200 okay, like I said, no one made a difference by being like anyone 355 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:52.839 else, and I think that continually resonates, or if you're not progressing, 356 00:25:52.880 --> 00:26:00.279 you're regressing, and thinking about those concepts of where's our next thing and where's 357 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:03.759 our next evolution and how do we meet our students where they are? And 358 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.880 I think that's really those key aspects. Walking through the shoes of someone else 359 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:14.160 and what is that like? Giving like emotional experiences where you may only be 360 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:15.720 able to read about it or watch it on like a youtube video, but 361 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:21.000 actually living through that, you know, going through those different places and not 362 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.119 just visiting places. But we have a faculty that are going to these museums 363 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:27.440 that maybe you may not have access to, recording a lecture on a three 364 00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:33.480 sixty camera and letting the students have that. Are Creating digital forensic labs where, 365 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.759 yeah, you we may not have an actual lab on campus, but 366 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.440 the students can go in, take evidence and do digital forensics and learn that. 367 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:45.559 And so that's really reshaping. What does that mean to learn differently and 368 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.240 how do and for me it's really about the experience and the more I teach 369 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.759 and teach for like six seven years, how do you give those students the 370 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:59.839 experiences, an applicable experience that's beyond just the traditional learning? And so those 371 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.480 are a few of the factors that we're doing and we're looking to do in 372 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:07.519 the near future and continue to do to to really disrupt what's happening in higher 373 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.039 education. You know, I just the last question I had for you is 374 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.440 talking about people who may be listening who might be looking at a career in 375 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.440 institutional research or just looking to gain from the experience that you've had moving through 376 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.440 your career. At this point, I wonder if there's a piece of advice 377 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:26.079 or a story you might share that could give them the higher edge, you 378 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:30.200 know, maybe something that helped you see things differently or advance your work more 379 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.759 successfully. What do you think? I think to me is always looking forward 380 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:40.640 to and asking the questions what's next? You know, some of the things 381 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:44.200 that's easy in all of our careers and jobs is to be comfortable. You 382 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.880 know, comfort is the enemy of progress and I think, well, it's 383 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.640 easy to be comfortable, easily to feel safe and secure in one space. 384 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:56.039 You know, taking calculated risks, to putting yourself out there are kind of 385 00:27:56.119 --> 00:28:00.960 key things that I recommend doing. You know, asking questions is asking like 386 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:07.319 four thousand questions, but asking questions with a purpose to really make change, 387 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:11.880 you know, getting involved, invest in yourself and look at you know what, 388 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.240 what's the endgame do you want? Is your goal to be someone in 389 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.279 conducting research, like a research assistant, research analyst, to lead research efforts, 390 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:22.240 to lead planning efforts, to lead collaboration, grant efforts, you know, 391 00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.920 to facilitate innovation? What is that ideal state? And then reverse engineer 392 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:30.039 that back is how do I get there? How do I position myself, 393 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.839 and not just in different parts of the organization, but how do I get 394 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.400 involved? How do I learn about things. You know, learning can happen 395 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.880 in a traditional classroom, but it can also happen through hands on approaches and 396 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.680 I think those types of things that's taking that initiative is is one of the 397 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.079 key things that that anybody can do, and that's the beauty of working in 398 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:55.440 the field that we're in, is that it fosters personal growth and enrichment and 399 00:28:55.480 --> 00:29:00.519 I think take advantage of that and leverage that to your capability. I look 400 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:06.119 at other things, and primarily higher education, primarily related to institutional effectiveness and 401 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:11.200 data is, you know, we want to continue to support that, the 402 00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:18.559 approach of of really not just data literacy but data empowerment, empowering others with 403 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.160 information. And, like I said, what's the purpose of information? What's 404 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.279 the purpose of the data? Is it because we have a ton of it, 405 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.039 or is it to really make change? And I think that's being a 406 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.839 change agent is something that's very exciting that this work brings. So that would 407 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:38.599 be lots and lots of opportunity to do that. Is what you talked about, 408 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.000 with the evolving role of research into all these other areas within the institution. 409 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.960 So well, Aaron, thank you so much for coming on the show 410 00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:49.519 and sharing your experience with us. Most definitely. Know it's been always fun 411 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.799 hanging out, so I'll look to talk to you later about some other fun 412 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:57.200 projects. That sounds good. Hey, for our listeners we've been talking to 413 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.759 Aaron Zentner, who is the dean events, ustional effectiveness, research, analytics, 414 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:06.480 accessibility, accreditation, planning and grant development for Coastline Community College. Hey, 415 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:08.599 Aaron, would it be all right if listeners would like to reach out 416 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:14.839 to you with questions about today's episode? Most definitely. I always enjoy engaging 417 00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:18.960 in the conversations around data, research, analytics, planning, innovation, anything 418 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:25.079 actually. So yeah, I'm happy to meet chat and just share ideas. 419 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.319 If you're listening you'd like to continue the conversation with Aaron, just drop an 420 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.200 email to Aaron at the higher edge DOT com. That's Aaron A E R 421 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:37.680 O n at the Higher Edge Dot Com. Aaron, such a pleasure to 422 00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:41.200 have you on the show. Thanks again for coming on and being a guest 423 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.039 with us on the higher edge and for everyone listening. I'm Brennan Aldrich and 424 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:49.599 we'll talk. So thanks for listening to the higher edge. For more subscribe 425 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.440 to us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a review if you loved 426 00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:57.880 the show and be sure to connect with Brendan on Linkedin. Know someone WHO's 427 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:03.559 making big changes at their higher at institution? That belongs on this podcast. 428 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:08.319 Drop us a line at podcasts at the higher edge DOT COM. The higher 429 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:15.480 edge is sponsored by invoke learning in partnership with Westport Studios, using opinions expressed 430 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.480 by individuals during the podcast are their own. See how invoke learning is empowering 431 00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:25.440 higher education at invoke learning DOT com. m